Thomas Butterworth’s wife and my wife met and became friends during their days as students together at Kennesaw State University. I met Thomas a few times briefly at various gatherings. After reading my first book, Margin Matters: How to Live on a Simple Budget & Crush Debt Forever, Thomas sent me an encouraging email with positive feedback. Within our subsequent conversations I discovered that he earned not one, but two debt-free degrees. Naturally I informed Thomas of this book project and asked him to share his story.
Having lived in Woodstock, Georgia, his entire life, Thomas is now 35, married 10 years, and has two beautiful daughters ages 5 and 3. In 2011 he earned a Bachelor of Science in Accounting at Southern Polytechnic State University—now Kennesaw State University (KSU). In 2018 he claimed his MBA with a certification in ethical leadership from KSU. Thomas is currently working in the oil industry as a senior information technology auditor for Colonial Pipeline.
What is your view toward money? Did your parents (or anyone else) teach you about money when you were young?
When I was growing up, I had no concept of money and how it impacted your life, nor did I have anyone giving me guidance on money. My parents tried to shield me from reality at times and they also created a world where I didn’t understand the concept of money. Both my parents worked hard and came from challenging environments. They struggled, so when I was younger I think they were both learning [about money] themselves.
As I got into high school and started working part-time jobs, my parents mentioned opening accounts to put money into. They didn’t teach me any concepts or justifications as to why we were doing these things (this was all prior to the days of the internet where you could just look things up for advice), so you would previously have to get information out of books—which I did not read. My grandparents were more influential as I got into high school, college, and into my young adult life giving me guidance because they both grew up at the end of the Great Depression. Therefore, they had more insight and struggle from where they came from.
To my view on money, I really didn’t have a concept of what money was and how it can impact lives. I did hear my parents growing up having intense discussions about money. They had separate accounts, so I remember them saying, “I thought you were paying this bill?” “I thought you were paying that bill?” There was no sitting down and talking though all the bills.
Share the story of your progression from high school to college and how you graduated debt free?
It wasn’t until my senior year of high school when I started applying for colleges and had no idea what my options were. There was no education or awareness, at least not in the high school that I went to. Everyone was going to college for the most part. I’d say about 90% of my high school class went to college.
My parents were banking on the [Georgia] HOPE Scholarship. That’s what I was hoping for. At the time you had to maintain a 3.0 GPA and they would cover the majority of tuition, books, and some of your housing. That was the go-to at the time—the HOPE Scholarship because of the cost. This was in 2004 and back then college was much more affordable than it is now.
The original plan was my parents and grandparents would assist with any costs not covered by HOPE. I also wanted to live on campus. My parents helped me out my first year. We had a deal in place, but I broke the deal, so I lost their financial support. I lost HOPE eventually. Not understanding truly how fortunate I was to have all that. That’s the embarrassing part of the story. I had something so valuable that someone was willing to pay for the costs. I had the HOPE Scholarship to where I just flushed it down the toilet. I was definitely not in a mature state of mind at the time. I was not mature enough to go to college but because that was the track everyone was supposed to go down, everyone was rushed into it. That paved the way into why I had to adapt and adjust into having to pay for college myself.
What challenges did you face paying your way through schooling?
I ended up getting several part-time jobs putting in over 40 hours a week in multiple locations. I was working as a lab technician for a dentist office and as a telecom specialist for a telecommunications company. They allowed me to be extremely flexible. Another thing I did on the side was house and pet sitting. Not only was I able to work these part-time jobs and go to school, but in the afternoons and evenings I watched people’s homes and animals while they were out of town. If you are looking for extra money while in college, I highly recommend considering house sitting. It is a nice additional income with usually little additional work. I was paid anywhere from $15-$35 a day to watch animals/houses. That subsidized my ability to pay for college.
While I started out with the HOPE Scholarship, I eventually lost it. So, I had to become extremely creative and realized that I had to pay for this. In the process I changed majors after doing a self-reflection and realized the degree program I was in, I loved as a hobby but hated as a career. This was also during the time of the Great Recession.
At one point I got laid off from one of my part-time positions, but I was able to pick up another one. That was how I was able to subsidize but it also took me seven years to finish, which encompasses my change in degrees from start to finish. I was one year away from graduating with my first degree and realized, “I just don’t want to do this anymore.” That was a tough pill to swallow. My parents and family were not excited about that decision. I decided, “I’m not happy in this. I just don’t want to do it for the rest of my life.” I’m very glad I made the change and did that self-reflection.
So that’s the path I took – working those part-time jobs. Eventually while in school pursuing my undergraduate degree, I was offered a full-time position at the telecommunications company I was with. That [additional income] allowed me to pay for my schooling during that time as well.
Did you ever consider getting student loans?
In reality that’s the thing [loans] that everyone goes to. I met with the financial services people from my school and they advise you on the student loans. I was not going to go to my parents and ask them for money – I would’ve felt embarrassed doing that. “Hey, I’ve potentially failed at what I want to do. Can you help me in this situation?” My parents wouldn’t co-sign with me on any student loans, so I was very concerned with doing it. Yes, I could have taken out this money but how was I also going to be able to afford to live on campus?
I did work as a resident advisor for a while to be able to live on campus, but I didn’t receive a paycheck from that role. I had to find ways to be able to pay for things. Yes, loans were an option but a lot of them were unsubsidized which would start gaining interest the time you take them out. Some of them were subsidized and I think we all need more education on knowing the differences between the two loans options. My grandfather always taught me “Don’t take out loans for money you don’t need.” Our society, this was taught into us—everyone needs a credit card, student loans, mortgages. Those are just things you do.
I saw student loans as an option but because I realized that if I sacrificed in the short term, in the long term I wouldn’t be paying for 10 to 20 years on the debt. Fortunately, because of the cost of the degrees at the time, I was able to have that money. I eventually moved back home to my parents’ house—they welcomed me back, thankfully. The deal was as long as I was in school they would allow me to stay with them and provide me meals, but once I was done with school I had to move out or pay them rent. On the degree side, I realized I was able to pay for them and if I sacrificed a little more I wouldn’t have to take out student loans. Although they were an option for me, thankfully I did not take out any student loans.
How did you avoid student loans and earn your MBA debt free?
For this degree I had less stress financially. I can’t emphasis enough that if you work for a company that offers any type of tuition reimbursement, harness that to its fullest extent. That’s what I did. I worked for a company that not only had a tuition reimbursement program, but also had no time requirement for that agreement. Some companies may reimburse you for tuition costs but expect a year of employment after that or else you would owe the taxes or the reimbursement back. That’s how I was able to do it.
I was working a full-time job and around 2016 I started my master’s program. Thankfully the two places where I worked during the time of earning my master’s offered a tuition reimbursement program. I was able to earn my MBA completely debt free by harnessing both of those programs while using my personal funds to buy books. I used Chegg and Amazon to save money on books. You can also look for virtual books to save money. Professors seem to be pretty accepting of helping you find other options to buying a book for $350.
It took me a little longer to graduate—about 2.5 years in the program. My wife and I sacrificed on the things we would normally do to be able to afford this degree. We still have to live, but we figured out what we could do to cut costs.
Looking back, is there anything you would’ve done differently regarding how you managed money during your college years?
Yes, there is much that I would change. That being said, I also learned a lot during my financial struggles at this time in my life. I guess I could say I wish I had known things versus done things differently. Knowing would have allowed me to change more.
I would have kept the agreement with my parents and I would have kept HOPE Scholarship. At this time in my life, I did not understand how fortunate I was and the opportunities that I had. I wish I had not let my family down from a few choices, but that also helped me deal with failure and having to figure things out. I would have also pushed back on my parents for at least a year of working vs going to college. I felt pressured on a few levels to go to college even when I knew I was not ready. I also do not know what may have come of my life if I had chosen that path. My parents were concerned that I would not actually go to college, similar to their choices. Additionally, I would have looked for more scholarships after losing HOPE Scholarship. I did not realize how many companies and other areas there are to get scholarships or non-commitment financial assistance.
One of the biggest challenges of being in school is the unspoken peer pressure of, “You should graduate in four to five years.” I dealt with that personally because I saw a lot of my friends graduating from college [before me] and being successful. You are comparing yourself to other individuals. Looking back, I didn’t choose to take out loans to potentially expedite how quickly I’d graduate. There were times that I didn’t take full loads. That’s a part of the student loan game—“hey, get out in four or five years, you don’t have to work, you can dedicate your time [to school].”
Wanting to go on trips with my friends was a struggle. I had a lot of friends who traveled the world who were fortunate with different opportunities or used student loans to help with travel expenses. I would’ve loved to see and tour the world, especially being younger and single at the time. I did save up to go on more local trips.
Looking back, I don’t know if I would have changed a lot because I learned a lot of lessons. I wish somebody would have sat me down and taught me the management of money. I had no idea how to handle money. Not only was I working to pay tuition and fees, I was also working to pay credit cards off. Having access to more information at a younger age would’ve been ideal. However, I was the first one in my family to graduate from college, so no one had that experience. A lot of the life lessons I learned early on, I learned from the trials I had to go through. Determining what am I going to do and how am I going to do it—and trying to create the solutions.
What are your thoughts on the student loan debt crisis? – which now stands at $1.7 trillion
It’s an unfortunate thing that we’ve gotten to. If we look at history—the mortgage crisis (mortgage bubble) and now the student loan crisis—I think we are uninformed on certain decision levels. I’ve had many conversations with individuals who didn’t understand the difference between subsidized and unsubsidized, yet they were able to sign the agreements and not fully understand what they were getting into. I think there is more awareness now.
I think it is important for people to evaluate their situation. For example, think about what you want to do, what the job market is like (likelihood of getting job), how much someone in a position you are after really makes after taxes and other costs, and how much will the degree cost? We think about a degree cost, but schools have so many fees and charge a premium to live on campus and to eat on campus.
Look at Kennesaw State University for example, an undergraduate degree costs in state $3,774 for 15 hours of courses and fees. If you live on campus, one plan they have is $3,825 per semester and meal plan of $1,770. So that is over doubling the cost of just going to school. I recognize that not everyone has a place to stay, other than on campus housing, but I recommend people that can live with family or friends do that to save on costs. Living on campus can be fun, but that is another $5,000 a semester. Kennesaw State is also one of the more affordable schools in Georgia. Look at other options, such as a local university to then transfer into a larger full degree program university.
What advice would you give to students entering college regarding how to avoid student loan debt?
If you’re going to take out student loans, think about what you want to do in life. Don’t accept rushing to college because you feel like you need to go to college. Think about what the job market is. What’s the likelihood of you getting hired directly out of college? Do you need additional experience? How much money are you going to be making? What is the average salary for a starting position? My first job out of college I was making $27,000 a year. When we’re looking at those types of things, we need to understand how much we are taking out in student loans. There are certain positions, especially in the medical environment, where you don’t have $200,000 to pay for schooling but those positions usually pay substantially more.
Look at potentially starting at a local, two-year college then transferring into a four-year college. I recommend everyone evaluate how long it would take you to pay off any loans.
There are a lot of companies now that are looking at a more wholistic view of hiring employees—not necessarily seeking college degree-level individuals to fill certain positions. Realizing that college is important, but not everyone needs to go to college to be able to get qualified in certain things. For example, there’s IT [information technology] certification companies out there for all sorts of different types of technology certifications. You don’t need a degree to get them and you don’t have to take out student loans to be qualified for them. A lot of companies are looking for those certificated candidates instead of, or on top of, the degrees—depending on the level of position.
Share your thoughts on the notion that “Education is ‘good debt’ because you are investing in yourself.” Yet, people are leaving school (some not even graduating) with debt in the six figures.
I do agree with the statements of good or bad debt, but it also should be considered informed and uninformed debt. Yes, I think education is extremely important. I think continuous education and challenging yourself is very important. At the same time, I think there’s a limit to the cost. Consider in-state versus out of state. Look at all your options. I have a friend who’s taken out $90,000 for an undergraduate accounting degree. He says it will take him 20 years to pay it back. Do I believe there is good debt? I don’t if that’s the best way to say it, but I think there are forms of debt that are necessary and others that are unnecessary—which I think is probably the majority.
I have another friend who bussed to Atlanta every day when he was in college, worked a full-time job, and came back and went to school. It took him seven-in-a-half years to graduate college, but he graduated debt free. I respect him for that accomplishment. Not everyone has the patience or self-control for that.
Try to be as informed as you can. Many people don’t want to talk about finances because it’s personal and emotional. I encourage those to think about having a trusted relationship with someone to have those conversations. What are your struggles? Remember, these financial institutions make money off the interest! Think about all your options. Student debt has its place but there are definitely opportunities with companies to pay for your degree.
Thomas’s story will also be featured in my upcoming book I DID IT! How I Earned Two Debt-Free Degrees…and How You Can, Too! Due out in fall 2021.
For more on my financial journey and thoughts from other unique individuals, check out my book Margin Matters: How to Live on a Simple Budget & Crush Debt Forever.